Athlon Scope...

[Rob Lancaster]

Randy, can you explain more about BIOS / Cmos settings. We have no idea what the devil that is, LOL!

The new Minisforum has a (clear CMOS) right on the front of the unit. What's it all about?

That's the only thing we didn't do with the old unit. We have no idea how to perform the procedure. While looking at the MB, we noticed 6 pins (all together) sticking up on the board.
Marked: BBR two pins open.
PSW two pins shorted buy jumper plug.
SW_CMOS two pins open.
Do these pins have anything to do with the resetting procedure?

Thanks again............

 

[RandyDSok]

The words BIOS and CMOS are pretty much the same... I'll often type it much like you did so if a person is only familiar with one of the words, they understand what I'm talking about.... but you can call it either.

This is where the system keeps all of the info it needs about the settings for the hardware like drive, memory, cpu specs and the like so it knows how to start them up every time the system is turned on and even the date and time. That of course is an over simplified explanation but should give you an idea. Since the system memory goes away every time you turn off the computer, the BIOS is kept by a battery attached to the motherboard. If it didn't have a battery, it would have to figure out the specs of everything every time you boot the computer taking much much longer they what you typically see... and you would also have to tell it the time/date every time.

Clearing the CMOS causes the system to re-initialize the info about the hardware from scratch. It typically isn't required unless someone had made improper changes to the settings within the CMOS causing the system to not boot up. If you need to clear it, the system needs to be turned off and you either push a button or short two pins that are found on the motherboard somewhere. Typically, the system should still turn on even if the CMOS has incorrect information but it may not load the operating system without errors. If the system is not powering on, then the problem is likely with a hardware failure and not a CMOS setting incorrectly set.

I usually won't make any recommendations on settings you will find in a particular CMOS because every MB is different. If I do mention it... it is to set the time/date, enable the XMP, DOCP and/or EXPO settings for the system memory ( memory speed and timings that the memory has stored in a table if one exists ) ... make possible changes to fan curves or in rare cases, change the RGB light controls if they even exist in it. I never recommend overclocking a system which is about the only other time you may want to change any other setting you may find in a CMOS since these can lead to instability and over heating. HP almost never gives anyone access to anything but the most basic settings if that.

You can try shorting the SW_CMOS jumpers if you wish but it is unlikely to make a difference since you said the system was not even turning on. However, some of my clients say their computer isn't turning on and what they actually mean... is Windows is not starting which is something completely different... the computer comes on but the OS is not loading properly in those cases.

 

[Rob Lancaster]

The words BIOS and CMOS are pretty much the same... I'll often type it much like you did so if a person is only familiar with one of the words, they understand what I'm talking about.... but you can call it either.

This is where the system keeps all of the info it needs about the settings for the hardware like drive, memory, cpu specs and the like so it knows how to start them up every time the system is turned on and even the date and time. That of course is an over simplified explanation but should give you an idea. Since the system memory goes away every time you turn off the computer, the BIOS is kept by a battery attached to the motherboard. If it didn't have a battery, it would have to figure out the specs of everything every time you boot the computer taking much much longer they what you typically see... and you would also have to tell it the time/date every time.

Clearing the CMOS causes the system to re-initialize the info about the hardware from scratch. It typically isn't required unless someone had made improper changes to the settings within the CMOS causing the system to not boot up. If you need to clear it, the system needs to be turned off and you either push a button or short two pins that are found on the motherboard somewhere. Typically, the system should still turn on even if the CMOS has incorrect information but it may not load the operating system without errors. If the system is not powering on, then the problem is likely with a hardware failure and not a CMOS setting incorrectly set.

I usually won't make any recommendations on settings you will find in a particular CMOS because every MB is different. If I do mention it... it is to set the time/date, enable the XMP, DOCP and/or EXPO settings for the system memory ( memory speed and timings that the memory has stored in a table if one exists ) ... make possible changes to fan curves or in rare cases, change the RGB light controls if they even exist in it. I never recommend overclocking a system which is about the only other time you may want to change any other setting you may find in a CMOS since these can lead to instability and over heating. HP almost never gives anyone access to anything but the most basic settings if that.

You can try shorting the SW_CMOS jumpers if you wish but it is unlikely to make a difference since you said the system was not even turning on. However, some of my clients say their computer isn't turning on and what they actually mean... is Windows is not starting which is something completely different... the computer comes on but the OS is not loading properly in those cases.

Update time.....
We did the CMOS resetting procedure and he's dead jim, ha! Time to blow taps................
Any hoo,,, we ordered the Minisforum Venus series UM450. I'll bet this thing blows our old unit away, and as far as the money is concerned, the name brands are made in the same place as the over-seas stock,. So what the heck. I think I see where you're going with this approach.

As always, thanks for all your input on this stuff. We know a bit more now. Nice............ Keep you in the loop buddy...............

 

[RandyDSok]

Ok... You'll like it... or that is what I believe. Which leads to some tips and options for it that you may want to consider.


This first one isn't a tip... it's a strong recommendation. Like most all new computers, this comes with Windows 11 ( Pro version btw ). It is going to prompt you to connect to the internet... DO NOT have it connected to the internet or it will force a MS Account on you. So no Wifi no ethernet at the start. IF it says it can not continue without an internet connection... it is lying. Temporarily plug in the ethernet until it gives you a "Next" button... then before you click that button... remove the ethernet and proceed. At that point, it will ask you to provide a username... and a password ( if you don't want the PW, leave blank ). When it asks for your privacy preferences... I always unselect all and say No to each. So no hardware reporting, troubleshooting, no location services etc... there are about a dozen options on that page that I say No to all on.

Now once the initial setup is complete and you are at the Windows background... connect it to the internet and perform all of the updates much like you would for any other version of Windows... go into Settings ( slight change from the Control Panel ) and Windows update... install all you see... restart and repeat until none are listed. The latest Win11 version is 22H2 which will be one of the last updates given... probably a couple come in after that.

The next two will be tips... I'll probably try to post them separately as posts but I think the forum will join them if I post them to quickly. I will briefly mention them here still. The first is one called ExplorerPatcher that gives back options that previous versions of Windows have but they took away in Win11. They "simplified" the right click options menu.. making us click an extra step to see the options they had previously given us... and they moved the cut/copy/paste options to icons at the top of the File Explorer. I don't mind the icons part, but to make it another click to get to the other options is just silly. They also took away the option to place and arrange our own icons on the taskbar easily, something I use often. You can also select the older Windows 10 style menu if you don't want to use the Win11 style.

The next tip or option .. is a program I've used since Win10 came out that can replace the Win10/Win11 style start menus with one that is more like Windows 7 instead. It's called Open Shell ( previously named Classic Shell )... and it's a purely cosmetic one for certain... but I like working with shortcuts in the older Win7 menu ( like organizing into folders for one example ) as well as having options for going direct to the Control Panel as well.

 

[RandyDSok]

ExplorerPatcher

As I mentioned, another area of aggravation is the loss of the Taskbar right click context menu functions as well as the context menu that was shown in File Explorer's right click menu. Valentin-Gabriel Radu from Igor's Lab fame has put his Explorer Patcher on GitHub to help address those shortcomings. Instructions for use of the many options it can provide are also found on his GitHub pages. You can find it here --> GitHub - valinet/ExplorerPatcher: This project aims to enhance the working environment on Windows

I can't go into all of the options but to get to the settings for this program after you have installed it, you right click on the Taskbar and select Properties. It has several pages of options for you to select from to get just the things you like.

Windows 11 itself gives you the option to move the Start Menu back to the left side of the taskbar ( the middle is the default and looks cool, but some are use to it on the left )... but ExplorerPatcher also gives you the option to return to a Windows 10 style menu if that is your preference. You'll have to find that setting in all of the options this program gives since at home, I'm still on Win10 ... I only have one computer ( also a Minisforum brand ) at work with Win11 currently and simply can't recall where all of the options I prefer are located since there are a lot of them to choose from.

 

[RandyDSok]

Open Shell

Windows 10 and 11 Start Menu replacement.... Classic Styled ( Win7 like ) Start Menu called Open-Shell

The Windows Start Menu has often been one of discussion and having them changed hasn't always been popular. Windows 7 has a Start Menu that is optimized for keyboard and mouse use. The Windows 8.0 Start Menu was almost always disliked as it was only considering touch screen users, ignoring those that used a keyboard/mouse. With Windows 8.1 and then Windows 10, the Start Menu offered a little of both options but was still a compromise for keyboard/mouse users. Now Windows 11 has once again ignored the keyboard / mouse user base and gone with a Start Menu again focused on touch screen use more.

A lot of my work clients use a keyboard and mouse instead of a touchscreen so have not been happy with the newer styled start menus of either Windows 10 or Windows 11. This is for those people and provides a free start menu similar in style to what is found in Windows 7. It also has the option to add additional styles as well. The name of the open source start menu is Open Shell, this is a fork of the much loved Classic Shell that is no longer being supported.

To get Open Shell, go to the following webpage, go into the Nightly builds and get the latest version. I don't recommend getting the Released version since the nightly builds correct several issues that haven't yet made it into the release.

Their webpages can be found on Github at Welcome to Open-Shell

You will want to download from the Nightly Builds downloads instead of the latest release since the nightly's have been make compatible with Win11 more. As of this writing, the latest nightly is v 4.4.189.. if they have a newer one, get that one instead.

... next. After downloading Open-Shell, right click on the installation file and select "Run as Administrator", accept any warnings that Windows may have about it not being a signed program. On Windows 10, the next time you open the Start Menu, Open-Shell will give you the option to set it up. On Windows 11 you will have to manually run the Open-Shell Menu Settings. The screen will look like the following and I recommend the Windows 7 Style. Update, if using the ExplorerPatcher mentioned below, you won't need to manually setup a custom start menu button and can choose to use the stock button and Open-Shell will still work.




I also prefer a different Skin addon ...
Finally, to get the skin I mentioned that I'm going to recommend, the Fluent-Metro one... go to the following GitHub page to download it

GitHub - bonzibudd/Fluent-Metro: A modern, highly customizable Start menu skin for Open-Shell.

A modern, highly customizable Start menu skin for Open-Shell. - bonzibudd/Fluent-Metro

github.com

Extract the files and place them in your C:\Program Files\OpenShell\Skins folder. Then open Open-Shells settings by right clicking on the start menu icon and select Settings. Go to the Skins option tab to select Fluent-Metro or any other skin you wish.



When looking through the options... I like the ones for "Floating" the menu to give it a bit of a rounded corners look.

Here is a screenshot of the menu using the Fluent Skin... note the transparency isn't showing...The screenshot was taken in a Virtual Machine and transparency doesn't work on it unless the 3D acceleration option is enabled... but that doesn't work well in VirtualBox the VM I'm using, so it's disabled. That is an issue Oracle's VB has had for a long time with certain Windows video drivers and not a problem with any of the programs I've mentioned.



Open-Shell has a lot of options which I'm not going to go through here beyond what I just covered. This will get you to a good starting point to get what you like and you have many options to tweak if it's not exactly like you want.

 

[RandyDSok]

Ok... finally my last general tip for Windows 10 and Windows 11 concerning types of user accounts. This is probably the harder one to wrap your head around but it is a big difference in what a user can and can't do.

Windows 10 and more so Windows 11 have the option to use a Microsoft Account instead of a local account. In fact, they are pushing hard on trying to get users to give them control over their own Windows by using a MS Account instead of the previous default user account type. A MS Account forces users to always be online or be online often enough to log into their computer... but it doesn't take into account of what if the internet is not working or what if the user doesn't even have internet at all. It also forces the users to always use a username and password, which isn't bad and is actually preferred over no password for security reasons... It's the fact that they are forcing it that many, including myself have a problem with it. Not to mention that if someone has physical access to the computer, they can still get to any and all files on the computer anyway.

Another implication, that isn't being used but still exists.. is that Microsoft, if they chose too, could stop a user from installing specific softwares that they had chosen. I'm not talking about software that may be incompatible, I'm talking about ANY software for whatever reason they think is valid and the user would have no choice in the matter. They currently don't do this at this time but the fact that they could is what is troublesome.

So Windows will constantly "encourage" you to enable a MS Account anytime you want to use some of their other "services" ... Stuff like OneDrive, the MS Store, Office 365 ( which will always require an internet connection, so I recommend if you buy MS Office, get the full offline version like MS Office 2021 instead of the 365 version which requires a yearly subscription.

They will make it sound like you must have a MS Account on your copy of Windows to even run these when that is not actually the case ( as of now ). All of these other options/services can log into a MS Account without your Windows itself having to also. How it is done with each may differ slightly... but when they prompt you initially, don't let them force you into also using on your Windows itself. Select the option to not do that... sign into the program itself instead ( using a MS account but only within that program if you must ). How you may have to do this will differ for each and a little bit of searching will walk you through the steps... Google is a good thing in this case for those types of searches so you don't accidentally switch your Windows over to using a MS Account also.

 

[Rob Lancaster]

Oh man,,,,, you sure are informed. Whould you like a job? LOL!!
Anyway the delivery date is Wen, the 15th or so. See you on the flip side.

 

[Rob Lancaster]

Maybe I should change the name of this here thread..
Randy, I forgot to ask, we need a new USB hub. When it comes to the computer we just ordered, what would you recommend for a good USB hub?
Thanks in advance buddy...

 

[RandyDSok]

Well.. it all depends on the number of ports you need, what you are plugging into the ports and if you need additional power for some devices like an external hdd or whatever. Do get at least a basic style USB 3.0... just be aware that not all variants of USB 3 are the same speed if speed is important to you. Do a Google search on USB 3 speeds to get an idea of what I'm referring too... it's another long subject.

I always want the IN USB port to be a replaceable cable. Cables are anything's major failure point and if it is replaceable it can make a fix easier... also how from from the computer you need the hub varies depending on several factors so a short cable if close by the computer and longer one if you need more distance. I'm not a big fan of hanging a MiniPC from the back of a monitor but it is an option, these come with VESA mounts and if the monitor supports them also... you can mount the computer back there making any cable you need shorter also.

Typically I don't need power ( I do have a USB hub that has it for times that I do )... so I usually get a 4 port unpowered hub and I like to mount or have my ports up on or close to the monitor since that is close to where I typically sit. All of that is subjective and just happened to fit my own needs in most cases... The hubs I'm currently using the most do have a power option but did not come with the additional power supply since I'm mostly just using kb, mice and thumb drives... not external hdd's or other devices required more power.

I try to stay with known name brands but most of the well known peripheral companies may not be what people are familiar with unless they look at lots of products... The list is way to long to get into also. So a short list ( not picked for any reason than off the top of my head type )... Anker, Onico, Startech, Sabrent. and TP Link to name a few in no particular order. If a name is similar to another popular name, they are obviously trying to get in off of the other brands recognition and probably should be avoided.

The one I like if it fits the requirements is the following from Onico...

Amazon product

Sabrent also has one I like that also includes memory card support but takes away one of the USB ports in order to provide it.

 

[Rob Lancaster]

Well.. it all depends on the number of ports you need, what you are plugging into the ports and if you need additional power for some devices like an external hdd or whatever. Do get at least a basic style USB 3.0... just be aware that not all variants of USB 3 are the same speed if speed is important to you. Do a Google search on USB 3 speeds to get an idea of what I'm referring too... it's another long subject.

I always want the IN USB port to be a replaceable cable. Cables are anything's major failure point and if it is replaceable it can make a fix easier... also how from from the computer you need the hub varies depending on several factors so a short cable if close by the computer and longer one if you need more distance. I'm not a big fan of hanging a MiniPC from the back of a monitor but it is an option, these come with VESA mounts and if the monitor supports them also... you can mount the computer back there making any cable you need shorter also.

Typically I don't need power ( I do have a USB hub that has it for times that I do )... so I usually get a 4 port unpowered hub and I like to mount or have my ports up on or close to the monitor since that is close to where I typically sit. All of that is subjective and just happened to fit my own needs in most cases... The hubs I'm currently using the most do have a power option but did not come with the additional power supply since I'm mostly just using kb, mice and thumb drives... not external hdd's or other devices required more power.

I try to stay with known name brands but most of the well known peripheral companies may not be what people are familiar with unless they look at lots of products... The list is way to long to get into also. So a short list ( not picked for any reason than off the top of my head type )... Anker, Onico, Startech, Sabrent. and TP Link to name a few in no particular order. If a name is similar to another popular name, they are obviously trying to get in off of the other brands recognition and probably should be avoided.

The one I like if it fits the requirements is the following from Onico...

Amazon product

Sabrent also has one I like that also includes memory card support but takes away one of the USB ports in order to provide it.

Yeah something like that would be choice for our needs.

Hey! The computer arrived today, A day earily. WOW, what a mini li'll thing. I love the possibilities!
Standby for cut over. >>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[RandyDSok]

Remember... do not connect to the internet until after you setup your local account ... on any Win11 computer ...

The USB hub you have stuck to the side of your existing / dead parrot ( Monty Python reference ) ... could be used in a pinch. It would be the same speed it is ( I'm guessing USB 2.0 ) but can handle keyboards and mice just fine but may be a bit slow for a faster thumb drive but still workable for now.

The one I linked to is to be mounted on the side of a monitor or a desk... They show it fits 1.2" depth... they may be optimistic... but let's say it isn't more than that at the least.

As for size, they do feel tiny in comparison to an actual desktop sized computer. Still, they have some that are less than 2" square or there abouts... Of course those have a lower end CPU and don't allow you to add additional memory or a 2.5" drive to them either. Since most of my clients never upgrade or replace anything more than memory or storage drives, they are perfect for those types of situations. I think I mentioned I have one at home and one that I also use at work... love them for the uses I put to them. My main home PC ( and a main work PC for that matter ) are always getting this part or that one upgraded, so a desktop is the way to go if you do that... but a lot of people don't do or even need that much flexibility.

 

[Heliman450]

Congrats to you both for a successful conclusion!

 

[Rob Lancaster]

Remember... do not connect to the internet until after you setup your local account ... on any Win11 computer ...

The USB hub you have stuck to the side of your existing / dead parrot ( Monty Python reference ) ... could be used in a pinch. It would be the same speed it is ( I'm guessing USB 2.0 ) but can handle keyboards and mice just fine but may be a bit slow for a faster thumb drive but still workable for now.

The one I linked to is to be mounted on the side of a monitor or a desk... They show it fits 1.2" depth... they may be optimistic... but let's say it isn't more than that at the least.

As for size, they do feel tiny in comparison to an actual desktop sized computer. Still, they have some that are less than 2" square or there abouts... Of course those have a lower end CPU and don't allow you to add additional memory or a 2.5" drive to them either. Since most of my clients never upgrade or replace anything more than memory or storage drives, they are perfect for those types of situations. I think I mentioned I have one at home and one that I also use at work... love them for the uses I put to them. My main home PC ( and a main work PC for that matter ) are always getting this part or that one upgraded, so a desktop is the way to go if you do that... but a lot of people don't do or even need that much flexibility.

Oh yes, we're going to fallow your instuctions to the letter.

About the USB hub.
I noticed the picture on Amazon of the Blue USB ports on the computer say their 3.2 Gen 2 type A. Doesn't that mean the speed is 20 gbps? When you scroll down to the specs, it says the blue ports are 10 gbps. Which should I believe?
After that I can match the up the USB hubs speed to the computers blue USB ports. Does that sound about right?
Thanks chief......

 

[RandyDSok]

The organization that oversee's the naming conventions for USB is on crack ... more on that later.

I'm not seeing where you saw USB 3.2 Gen 2 or the 10 or 20 Gbps... the one I linked to states the older naming scheme of USB 3.0 5 Gbps. < --all I think you need to really know, the rest of this is just confusing but here it goes


Rant... The naming scheme has been changed from being incremented by a decimal number for improved faster connections to something confusing that no one in the tech industry understands the reasoning for, they just accept it since they have no say in the matter. The following is convoluted in my mind... but here goes my attempt at explaining it...

USB 3.0 which is/was 5 Gbps got first renamed to 3.1 Gen 1 and the faster speed was named 3.1 Gen 2 ( 10 Gbps ) when they came up with the new improvement in speed.

Next time they had an advancement again... they again changed all of the previous naming. Now the original 5 Gbps ( originally 3.0 ) speed is renamed to 3.2 Gen 1 and the 10 Gbps ( one of them ) is 3.2 Gen 2

The 3.2 spec introduced lanes... the original 2 just mentioned only have 1 lane of traffic but they also now have 2 versions with 2 lanes of traffic, one of which is the same speed as the previously "faster" speed.

So we now also get 3.2 Gen 1 x 2 ... which has a tranfer rate of 10 Gbps ... and they add a new speed of 3.2 Gen 2 x 2 that brings it up to 20 Gbps.

We ( most of the tech industry ) believes that most of the renaming is just marketing hype trying to make the older USB 3.0 and beyond sound newer or better... but we don't know for certain. We ( again, the tech industry ) believes it just have just had the number after the decimal incremented up ( ie 3.0, 3.1, 3.2 and 3.3 ) to indicate the change in speeds and left it like that. Newbies would still be confused no matter what but they would have stayed with a naming scheme that had been around since the introduction of the USB standard. As it is now, any product made before these changes are packaged using the older naming... and the newer products that are the same speed have newer naming applied which really is confusing.

What I linked to using the various naming standards... these all being the same speed .... USB 3.0 -> USB 3.1 Gen 1 -> USB 3.2 Gen 1 ... all are the 5 Gbps variety but depending on when they were released may have different USB speed names on the packaging.


( edit ... I noticed in several places I typed "Mbps" instead of "Gbps" ... I think I fixed them all but just in case you find another... it's a typo )

 

[RandyDSok]

I'm now wondering if instead of the USB hub I had linked to... you had meant the USB built into the MiniPC?

If you were talking about the MiniPC instead... It shows that it's ports are USB 3.2 Gen 2 ... which would be 10 Gbps types.

 

[Rob Lancaster]

I'm now wondering if instead of the USB hub I had linked to... you had meant the USB built into the MiniPC?

If you were talking about the MiniPC instead... It shows that it's ports are USB 3.2 Gen 2 ... which would be 10 Gbps types.

Yeah I was referring to the mini PC's, blue USB ports. You say those are 10 gbps ?? Or 20 gbps??

The USB hub link you gave me is a 5 gbps hub. So wouldn't that slow down the speed a lot? I would like to run my Real Flight 9 sim threw there.

Oh and I couldn't agree with you more about those guys that got into Hunter's stash.

Other than that, we've both been distracted trying to get boby parts for Tom's 1996 Accord. What the heck, it's only 27 years old. So we didn't setup the new mini computer yet. We want to take our time with that.

 

[RandyDSok]

I posted and you even copied my post on the speed of the built in ports...

The controller for your Real Flight won't matter since it doesn't require a lot of data much like a mouse or keyboard... but if you mean to run RF from an external drive I'm not sure since I have only had mine installed on my internal drives. If you were running it from an external drive previously, these ports are faster than what your old PC has.

 

[RandyDSok]

Other than that, we've both been distracted trying to get boby parts for Tom's 1996 Accord. What the heck, it's only 27 years old. So we didn't setup the new mini computer yet. We want to take our time with that.

Just remember you only have 30 day return window with Amazon itself... of course you still get the full parts warranty through the manufacturer but it's not as easy or cheap since shipping would be on you instead of Amazon.

 

[Rob Lancaster]

CQ CQ,, Station Haiku........ test, test, on the mini computer.
Anyone out there?