General Belt vs Torque Tube (Keep It Civil!)

[xokia]

I have no experience with a belt drive so I can't comment on it. I can only say what I've read around the forms. Belt drives are for beginners. They take more abuse than a gear drive. Gear drives are more efficient! So for smack down 3D flying gear drives work better. Now that align is coming out with the black carbon gears stripping them shouldn't be a problem! It's all up to the individual has to what you prefer. I don't know much about vibes so, what ever happened to Marius's bird the other day or why he keeps stripping gears while off the ground I can't say. Could be an inherent defect in the vibe. GABA's bird on the other hand seams to fly great.

Well considering the goblin is belt drive and Bert does 3D with one I don't think they are just for beginners. Functionally I see no difference between the two. Now number of parts and possibly expense I could see a difference. Belts will wear out over time that's just the nature of belts. I don't know what wears out on TT I haven't owned one long enough to find out.

The gears stripping easily is the only thing that aggrevated me so far with TT

 

[Slobberdog]

Guys engineering wise, yes the torque tube would be slightly more efficient but with the slight play that you have to have in the system this is going to have to have stress points, 1 where every gear tooth contacts another,

The way I look at it is, the belt only has one stress point and that's the drive gear, the rest of the system is under constant load, yes the belt will wear and stretch but the TT will will just wear,

I would say under high loads that you would be more likely get more failures of a TT tail than belt one, but hey I'm a nobody who has just put his 2cents in, look at the heli's out there now and most are coming out with TT tails....

 

[Tony]

I think you are spot on Kev. You can take out the slack on the belt, but you can do anything really with the TT gears once they wear other than replace them. And once they start wearing, they are going to wear faster and faster because of the increased friction caused by the little burs that are created.

 

[Slobberdog]

Think of how they design the bevel gears as well, if the bottoms of the teeth are square that will be a nasty sheer point, pressure acting on a cantilever. If one tooth is a bit weak its only a matter of time before you load it and it breaks.

 

[Island Breeze]

I know a lot of fliers changing or buying belt cause they keep strippng gears.

 

[stokke]

I know a lot of fliers changing or buying belt cause they keep strippng gears.

Unless JR coughs up an upgraded bevel gear like Align, I will not be repairing my JR. And if so, you can add me to the aforementioned "club".

 

[Tony]

I'm really thinking about finding a belt to put on the tail of this 600 of mine. I have never liked the TT tail and between you and Gaba, I'm almost sure that I don't want to put this thing in the air the way it is...

 

[Slobberdog]

Tony, it will depend on the stress you put on them, general flying you should not have to much trouble I think, it's when you ramp up the rpm and do the 3d stuff, that's the different thing.

Got to ask, apart from the two fails now, how many more have you heard of,

 

[Tony]

Thousands lol. Every where you look, someone is having an issue with those damn tail gears. And you are right, it's the idle up and hard piro's that could do it. Well guess what, I had fully planned on flying this bird like it was supposed to be flown. In idle up 2 at 19,000 rpm doing exactly what Stokke was doing when his failed. CCW hurricanes. And I'm getting pretty good with piro flips, but doubt that I'm good enough to do them with a real heli. IDK, we will just have to see what happens.

 

[Slobberdog]

Did not know it was that bad, have not looked on the Internet, kind of makes me wonder where I will go when it's time to upgrade, the JR Forza 450 looks nice

 

[Tony]

I'm thinking my next heli will either be a goblin or compass. Both are belt.

 

[FlightlessBird]

I don't have any real personal experience, other than looking at my son's 250 which has a belt drive, but I will say all the posts I have seen here and elsewhere about stripped torque tube gears from a tail strike makes me lean toward belt drive. It seemed fairly easy to set up, even being small.

 

[breeze400]

Well considering the goblin is belt drive and Bert does 3D with one I don't think they are just for beginners. Functionally I see no difference between the two. Now number of parts and possibly expense I could see a difference. Belts will wear out over time that's just the nature of belts. I don't know what wears out on TT I haven't owned one long enough to find out.

The gears stripping easily is the only thing that aggrevated me so far with TT

You also got to consider that your talking about a top end machine there with the goblin! There belt drive system is nowhere close to what an align or HK or others drive systems are! The align uses two small gears and no tensioner to drive the tail. There are many instances on this sight alone where a loose belt ended up in a crash! Like I said if you get the new align black gears you won't be stripping them anymore. Fact when you buy a new 700n dfc it is highly recommended that you don't even think about putting it in the air without replacing the gears with the new style. Hell I just bought them for mine. I think I have maybe $50 tops between the front and rear gear set plus the anti rotation gear! That's for the 700!

When I say that belts are for beginners, I'm saying the they are a lot more forgiving in a tail strike. They for the most part will slip. Not strip! Lol. Your still going to have to get new tail blades though!

 

[xokia]

I think you are spot on Kev. You can take out the slack on the belt, but you can do anything really with the TT gears once they wear other than replace them. And once they start wearing, they are going to wear faster and faster because of the increased friction caused by the little burs that are created.

I think the same can be said of a belt. Once it stretches you reach a point where increasing the tension only increases your risk of it breaking.

What is the life span of the belts people are using?

- - - Updated - - -

You also got to consider that your talking about a top end machine there with the goblin! There belt drive system is nowhere close to what an align or HK or others drive systems are! The align uses two small gears and no tensioner to drive the tail. There are many instances on this sight alone where a loose belt ended up in a crash! Like I said if you get the new align black gears you won't be stripping them anymore. Fact when you buy a new 700n dfc it is highly recommended that you don't even think about putting it in the air without replacing the gears with the new style. Hell I just bought them for mine. I think I have maybe $50 tops between the front and rear gear set plus the anti rotation gear! That's for the 700!

When I say that belts are for beginners, I'm saying the they are a lot more forgiving in a tail strike. They for the most part will slip. Not strip! Lol. Your still going to have to get new tail blades though!

I wasn't trying to say one was better than the other I haven't owned either long enough to make a decision on way or another. I have seen youtube video's of the goblin tensioner causing the belt to shred. So there can be down sides to both systems.

 

[Derek]

I am still an inexperienced heli pilot (in real life). On the sim, I am very carefree and sometimes careless, but I can push the heli all over the place on the sim. Real life...completely different story because it's my money in the air...there is no reset and I dont have any official sponsor's just handing me another new heli. My Trex 500 is belt drive and so far it has been very good to me.

Since this thread started, I remembered seeing a video on YouTube from Bert Kammerer. He's flying a Goblin 630 and has a "very low moment" while flying in this video where the tail blades are low enough that the 630 throws grass and dirt. In the video, you can see that he hits the Throttle Hold and settles the heli in the air and then before landing the heli....he pops off the TH and he's back in the air....layin' the Smackdown again. At the end of the video, he does comment that he hit the tail so hard and that he loves belt drive.

Anyway...here is that video. It's an awesome display of the Goblin 630. The tail strike happens around 2:19 into the video.

Bert Kammerer - Goblin 630 Demo Flight - 2012 Orlando Helicopter Blowout - YouTube

 

[Lee]

I remember seeing that video and how freaked out Bert was thinking the tail was dead, then OH! its ok, lets keep smacking it then

 

[coolgabsi]

Tony, My torque tube might have failed . yes.. but this was one in over 150 or more flights on 4 different helicopters all torque tube. My 600 nitro is TT, my 700 is TT. These helis fly fine. Torque tube shouldnt scare you .. if it was that brittle, it would have been going out first on ground touch of tail blades not the gears. If the gears can handle hard 3D, the TT is higher strength than that. Now this is keeping my mind Marius's JR disaster of gear stripping.. but I will leave that alone as a one case..

but on my 450 TT hanst CAUSE a crash before, and I have been flying this 450 for about 2.5 years.. Yes I have crahsed TON on this, bur NEVER because of the TT

My 600 nitro JR has had a crash because I installed the bearing block upside down. and that was a build fault.. NEVER outside of that there has been a crash because a failed TT. so please take the fear away from your 600 nitro that TT will fail on you

My 700 is all TT too.. that thing has twice the power of the 600 nitro and holds fine.

My Kinetic 50 was TT and tail never gave an issue even if the gears were MUCH weaker rthan Marius's JR.. but it was just a 50 engine in it.

BELT is definitely been a machine of choice for newer helicopters, but Look at Mikado XXTREME thats all TT. Thats a freakin 800 size bird.

Till, you are going to crash and not change TT, and then throw 3D at the bird, you arent looking at a potential faliuer.. or lets say this. The chances of that happeneing are about the same as there being a bubble in the carbon fibre weave on your 600 blades, and it just tearing apart in mid air because of that.

Belt of TT.. I dont know. I love Torque tube for the simplicity of it.. just so aeasy to work on.. while belt is a pain..

Performance, TT is more efficient. Belt lets you have more give if something goes wrong and yes, they will be more forgiving if a tooth goes missing, as you will not loose total control .

Would I pick belt over TT .. I dont know.. I love the simplicity of the torque tube and I am not a smack pilot so its not gona make a difference.

 

[coolgabsi]

BTW I may add... black torque tube gears on my 450... STILL NOT A GEAR STRIPPED> Two crashes.. one tail in .. no gears stripped..

just saying


XOKIA... lifetime of a belt.. there isnt a real number, you will crash before the shelf life of the belt expires, and end up replacing it.. this is just the nature of the hobby.. so there isnt any number available for that question . I have asked that question before.

 

[Derek]

This is just a thought I had....I would think that the lifetime of a belt, on a belt drive heli, would very much depend on many things. The brand/quality of the belt. How hard do you fly your heli and how much tail abuse do you use and so much more. Very much the same, i would think, as the belts in our cars and trucks that we drive everyday. Maybe the climate for one person is better/worse than another. Maybe this, maybe that. Ya know?

 

[xokia]

This is just a thought I had....I would think that the lifetime of a belt, on a belt drive heli, would very much depend on many things. The brand/quality of the belt. How hard do you fly your heli and how much tail abuse do you use and so much more. Very much the same, i would think, as the belts in our cars and trucks that we drive everyday. Maybe the climate for one person is better/worse than another. Maybe this, maybe that. Ya know?

This is what I was thinking as well but coolgabsi brings up a good point. If its detroyed before it "wears" out its a moot point.

BTW I may add... black torque tube gears on my 450... STILL NOT A GEAR STRIPPED> Two crashes.. one tail in .. no gears stripped..

Have a link to those gears?