FBL Gyro If you have a Spirit gyro you must read this

[Heliman450]

On that 6 degrees how is that adjusted? By moving a stick on the radio or mechanically?? And what is adjusted if so???

Hi Rodney, as one progresses through the setup process a screen comes up and when the small tickbox is activated the slider in the field can be moved. I use a digital pitch gauge so it's a simple process of moving the slider to the left or right until the correct reading is reached. (I'll upload a screen shot later).

Exactly what it does inside the gyro, I'm afraid I don't know. As a reference, it probably serves to give it a known value to provide sufficient lift to keep the heli in the air once the system rescues the situation. It must use the maximum setting to flip the heli, hence, it being too much with a setting well in excess of 10 degrees.

I'm still of the opinion that the destruction of the heli is caused by the blades losing the rigid, horizontal position they normally enjoy. How else do they reach the tail boom? Maybe Spirit might pay for a heli to test it to destruction :bigsmile:

 

[Smoggie]

Yes, that's how you set it, with a slider in the software. This setting is not related to rescue. It's just the setting that calibrated the FBL so it 'knows' what 6 degrees of cyclic looks like for general flying. All FBL controllers I've used have a similar setting, with the Vbar for instance you use 8 degrees for the reference point but the principal is the same.

Rescue ignores this setting and goes to maximum cyclic pitch that the cyclic ring setting allows, in order to flip/roll the heli as quickly as possible. this is why it's important to set your cyclic ring correctly because if too high then during rescue it can add so much pitch as to cause boom strike and explode the heli!.. Effectively this turns rescue into a self destruct button!

 

[trainrider06]

Ok, got it! Thank you! Now just gotta wait on techies or some word what's gonna happen with this one I have. Hopefully hear something back tomorrow! I know these guys are loath to do an exchange on something like this but hopefully an answer and fix would be preferable to me. If not, I guess I'll buy another one, because I've heard too much good from these to give up on it....even though I'd be pretty pissed if I had to do that!

 

[Heliman450]

Yes, that's how you set it, with a slider in the software. This setting is not related to rescue. It's just the setting that calibrated the FBL so it 'knows' what 6 degrees of cyclic looks like for general flying. All FBL controllers I've used have a similar setting, with the Vbar for instance you use 8 degrees for the reference point but the principal is the same.

Rescue ignores this setting and goes to maximum cyclic pitch that the cyclic ring setting allows, in order to flip/roll the heli as quickly as possible. this is why it's important to set your cyclic ring correctly because if too high then during rescue it can add so much pitch as to cause boom strike and explode the heli!.. Effectively this turns rescue into a self destruct button!

Hi Steve, without being able to have access to their control philosophy and logic diagrams, I can't say exactly what the setting is used for. I could, however, work it out. Of course the 6 degrees are used as a reference as is the maximum setting of the blades. But they serve a purpose in the control scheme e.g. "when this condition applies - carry out an action, and when this condition applies - carry out another action".

The helicopter doesn't actually "explode" the correct use of the word technically involves combustion. The helicopter reported originally suffered a catastrophic mechanical failure (boom strike I believe), which must have looked very much like an explosion to the poor guy holding the Tx. watching his baby come spectacularly apart.

Without the links attached to the blades, my 550 has a total rotation of about 80 degrees on each blade. Despite this, the blades never come close to the boom. It's the blades losing their rigid alignment that causes them to flop around wildly and hit the boom when they lose their position as maintained by the centrifugal force of spinning at high speed. A rescue feature requires the change to flip the helicopter if set to bring it to normal orientation i.e. skids down/rotor up.

In this context, the rescue function is the root cause in the incident. When the blades lose their position the mechanical failure causes the boom strike. For different models the maximum setting will be a different number of degrees, maybe an XY heli could withstand 15-16 degrees. Arbitrarily picking 10 degrees may leave some without enough pitch to rescue the helicopter. Those with flying skills much greater than mine need to comment on that by answering the question "how efficiently do you feel the heli comes under control with 12, 14 or 16 degrees of pitch set in the gyro?".

If someone wants to come over and try, I'll go 50/50 on the cost of replacing my T-Rex in a test.

Food for thought? All feedback on the issue welcome (no abuse for offering a considered opinion please).

- - - Updated - - -

Ok, got it! Thank you! Now just gotta wait on techies or some word what's gonna happen with this one I have. Hopefully hear something back tomorrow! I know these guys are loath to do an exchange on something like this but hopefully an answer and fix would be preferable to me. If not, I guess I'll buy another one, because I've heard too much good from these to give up on it....even though I'd be pretty pissed if I had to do that!

Hi Rodney, what is it you're waiting for from the "techies"?

P.S. Thinking a bit more on this................. the original instructions for my AR7200BX use the term 'Teaching the Cyclic Geometry'. I can think of better terminology, however, in teaching the 6 degrees I believe it's setting the maximum cyclic setting that's used by the system when correcting the heli during normal flight (as Steve says) when it isn't receiving a stick input for something greater.

I'd really like to read something a bit more technical than what they turn out for general consumption.

 

[trainrider06]

Hi Phil, I'm having a difficult time gettin my SAT to bind, think it's an issue with the Spirit...

 

[Smoggie]

The helicopter doesn't actually "explode" the correct use of the word technically involves combustion. The helicopter reported originally suffered a catastrophic mechanical failure (boom strike I believe), which must have looked very much like an explosion to the poor guy holding the Tx. watching his baby come spectacularly apart.

I beg to differ....

Simple Definition of explode
: to suddenly break apart in a violent way with parts flying outward
: to change in a very sudden and violent way
: to move with sudden speed and force

Explode | Definition of Explode by Merriam-Webster



FWIW the 6 degree thing isnt a limit at all, it's just a calibration point. The FBL will apply whatever cyclic pitch angle it needs to achieve the commanded rate of rotation (i.e. the command you apply with the sticks). The only limit being what you set in cyclic ring and the maximum rate of rotation you set in the agility settings.

 

[trainrider06]

Here is a little safeguard concerning the Spirit.....either write down your S/N, or save the box! Waiting on the tech from Spirit to send me a program that he's confident will fix my issue right now, but if I hadn't been a box keeper this may have been even more difficult to try and fix! So be sure to know your serial number! Just a little hint for us Spirit users.

 

[Heliman450]

I beg to differ....

Explode | Definition of Explode by Merriam-Webster



FWIW the 6 degree thing isnt a limit at all, it's just a calibration point. The FBL will apply whatever cyclic pitch angle it needs to achieve the commanded rate of rotation (i.e. the command you apply with the sticks). The only limit being what you set in cyclic ring and the maximum rate of rotation you set in the agility settings.

I know how the word is used colloquially, that's why I included 'technically' in the description. That's why the heading is 'Simple Definition'.

What does FWIW mean??

Always willing to learn.

- - - Updated - - -

Hi Phil, I'm having a difficult time gettin my SAT to bind, think it's an issue with the Spirit...

Hi Rodney, I also had a similar problem with mine. I tracked it down to the need to exit the software, carry out the normal binding process as per your Tx. and then go back into the software to carry on. There's nothing clearly stated in the instructions about having to go in and out of the software although it could be construed from reading it repeatedly.

I'll go back along my threads and paste in a link to the one I raised a little while back. Here it is, see thread #43............

Spirit Pro Problem - Page 2

- - - Updated - - -

Hi Steve, a quick story from over 30 years ago.......

We had a pressure vessel 'explode' at the place I was working. I repeatedly misused the word and was told the error of my ways by the investigation team. The correct definition was that it ruptured due to a pressure surge as there was no combustion involved in the incident. It was designed to take about 1.0 Barg and ruptured at a calculated 108 Barg. Fortunately, nobody was injured in the incident, but there was some very dirty underwear needed cleaning. The blast was heard about 4 miles away!

Everybody I know who was there also used the word 'exploded' but with a few added expletives!

 

[Smoggie]

FWIW = For What It's Worth

By coincidence Pressure vessels and pressure piping is my day job for the last 47 years. As a point of interested ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers) who invented pressure vessel design code call such events 'explosions': https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/boilers/the-history-of-asmes-boiler-and-pressure. So I think your investigators were trying to be too clever....

 

[trainrider06]

Hi Phil, I just spent 2 hours emailing back and forth with the tech over in the Czech Republic for Spirit. I wish that it were that easy! Well it was the first time I bound it no problem at all! But I did a reset of the Spirit, and that's where the problems started. The poor tech, tirelessly and patiently took his time, explained, questioned, and really cared about finding out just what happened with it! I cannot say enough about how good this company seems to want to have the best system out there! He ended up sending me a program, because for some reason mine seemed to loose something in it that vurtually erased a code or something (I don't know what really) but the unit wasn't even carrying the serial number within it anymore. I cannot say enough about what a fine company that is! Over and beyond the call to duty this guy went to help me! Gives me great confidence they mean to make the best!

 

[trainrider06]

I know how the word is used colloquially, that's why I included 'technically' in the description. That's why the heading is 'Simple Definition'.

What does FWIW mean??

Always willing to learn.

- - - Updated - - -



Hi Rodney, I also had a similar problem with mine. I tracked it down to the need to exit the software, carry out the normal binding process as per your Tx. and then go back into the software to carry on. There's nothing clearly stated in the instructions about having to go in and out of the software although it could be construed from reading it repeatedly.

I'll go back along my threads and paste in a link to the one I raised a little while back. Here it is, see thread #43............

Spirit Pro Problem - Page 2

- - - Updated - - -

Hi Steve, a quick story from over 30 years ago.......

We had a pressure vessel 'explode' at the place I was working. I repeatedly misused the word and was told the error of my ways by the investigation team. The correct definition was that it ruptured due to a pressure surge as there was no combustion involved in the incident. It was designed to take about 1.0 Barg and ruptured at a calculated 108 Barg. Fortunately, nobody was injured in the incident, but there was some very dirty underwear needed cleaning. The blast was heard about 4 miles away!

Everybody I know who was there also used the word 'exploded' but with a few added expletives!

Phil I believe you had it right back then calling it an explosion, and everyone else was wrong. A rupture would by my thinking be just that, a pipe, blood vessel, or whatever cracking open, and if some ignitable gasses getting to the air met flame or some other reaction to atmospheric conditions or ignition source then an ensuing explosion afterward, or simply gasses water liquid escaping from the rupture would be a rupture.
But pressure, ignition of different chemicals, blowing the pipe or contained area open I'd think in that case would be an explosion. That'd be my pea brain figurin anyway....
Hey Smoogie interesting read there! It sounds like both you fellas have some impressive backgrounds that's for sure!

 

[Heliman450]

Hi all, sorry to have got a bit off topic. To try and bring mine and Steve's game of ping-pong to a close. I followed the link and found it interesting to read about something from the early years of industry. I suppose it's a sign of the times.......... people get killed and injured, it's an explosion. People don't and modern day political correctness makes sure that it's put in a slightly different light, then it's a pressure surge.

Different disciplines see events in different ways. I've lost a few too many friends and acquaintances over my long career in industry to accidents, which could have been avoided. May they all rest in peace.

- - - Updated - - -

Hi Phil, I just spent 2 hours emailing back and forth with the tech over in the Czech Republic for Spirit. I wish that it were that easy! Well it was the first time I bound it no problem at all! But I did a reset of the Spirit, and that's where the problems started. The poor tech, tirelessly and patiently took his time, explained, questioned, and really cared about finding out just what happened with it! I cannot say enough about how good this company seems to want to have the best system out there! He ended up sending me a program, because for some reason mine seemed to loose something in it that vurtually erased a code or something (I don't know what really) but the unit wasn't even carrying the serial number within it anymore. I cannot say enough about what a fine company that is! Over and beyond the call to duty this guy went to help me! Gives me great confidence they mean to make the best!

Hi Rodney, sounds like a nightmare. At least my troubles have all been self inflicted since taking on the Spirit Pro.......... I took the 550 for its maiden flight yesterday (video camera was there waiting) only to fail due to two oversights, one mechanical, one gyro setting related. So, no video to post yet. Today, back to the workshop to sort them both. The problem I have here is that I must go to the field to do a check that others can do in their back yard (garden), very frustrating.

I hope those guys over in the Czech Republic get you sorted

By the way........... did you pick up enough from the threads to satisfy your question regarding the 6 degrees? Thanks to Steve's help, I think I picked up more clarity......... I'd still like to read their control philosophy though.

 

[trainrider06]

Hi all, sorry to have got a bit off topic. To try and bring mine and Steve's game of ping-pong to a close. I followed the link and found it interesting to read about something from the early years of industry. I suppose it's a sign of the times.......... people get killed and injured, it's an explosion. People don't and modern day political correctness makes sure that it's put in a slightly different light, then it's a pressure surge.

Different disciplines see events in different ways. I've lost a few too many friends and acquaintances over my long career in industry to accidents, which could have been avoided. May they all rest in peace.

- - - Updated - - -



Hi Rodney, sounds like a nightmare. At least my troubles have all been self inflicted since taking on the Spirit Pro.......... I took the 550 for its maiden flight yesterday (video camera was there waiting) only to fail due to two oversights, one mechanical, one gyro setting related. So, no video to post yet. Today, back to the workshop to sort them both. The problem I have here is that I must go to the field to do a check that others can do in their back yard (garden), very frustrating.

I hope those guys over in the Czech Republic get you sorted

By the way........... did you pick up enough from the threads to satisfy your question regarding the 6 degrees? Thanks to Steve's help, I think I picked up more clarity......... I'd still like to read their control philosophy though.

Hi Phil! Dang that would be a pain to have to do such things! You should build a R/C Shack out there with internet service power supplies and benches! That would fix that problem!

Yeah I am waiting to hear back from the tech over there to hopefully explain just exactly what transpired and the fix to fix it. He actually figured it out pretty quick, just my pea brain wore him out trying to explain to me how to download and set up the files he sent in order to fix it....She binds like it should now!
Yes Got that 6 degree setting righted on the brain now and understand it thanks to you fellas!

 

[Smoggie]

I hope you get your Spirit sorted soon Rodney. Sounds like the tech support is pretty good.

 

[trainrider06]

Yes they are! It's up and running, just gotta get time to start setting it up, I only have one sat on it, and was thinking of putting a second one or an AR7700 reciever. I talked to Neil about it and he said that a separate battery to run the electrics has worked well for him. Gotta figure something, I want this baby in the air!

 

[holtneil]

HI guys just a quick update for Rodney , I am using HV servos so can take a 2 cell lipo , Rodney is using Align servos max of 6 volts , so is going to use the HW 100a LV esc but this will be powerful enough to run the servos and gyro

 

[Smoggie]

Yes, those new Hobbywing ESC's have really powerful built in BEC's and they are voltage adjustable up to 8V. The 160A hobbywing in my Agile 7.2 has a BEC rated at up to 25A!

 

[Heliman450]

Hi all, thanks to all the contributions to this thread I've been deep in thought............... dangerous stuff! Currently, I'm doing a write-up of the Spirit instructions combined with some info from my Jeti Tx. to make sure my understanding is good enough to ensure my heli has the best chance of surviving its maiden flight unharmed.

I'll gladly share it here when completed if anyone's interested. I'm sure there would be some interesting feedback.