stokke
Well-Known Member
No, the JR is electric as well - but will be running GOV.
Marius' learning to fly - "video diary"
- Thread starter stokke
- Start date
No, the JR is electric as well - but will be running GOV.
coolgabsi
Super Mod & DEAL KING!
Governer on a 450 is pointless until you are exceeding the head speed rating of the manufacturer. The governor is built into the ESC in electric helis.. Companies like Castle and Scorpion anD ICE have governors in their ESC which are programmable to whatever headspeed you want.
On your 450 Marius, as I showed in the calculations, you arent gonna go over 3600 rpm anywaz. Thats way inside the manufacturer's specs. You can play with it.. although I dont understand how you are going to govern this 450 are you changing the ESC? you tx might have a setting, and RX might have a port , but you still need the sensing equiment for the governor. For nitros its actually a sensor sitting on the engine. For Electrics its inside ESC adjusting the timing as you tell it what your gear ratio is and whats the target Rpm. Beware, the throttle curves and everything has to change on the 450 if you govern it.
If you opt on going to a 6s setup, then YES you NEED governer then. The ESC you use usually comes with a governor.
on your JR NEX 8 the ESC you will get will have a programable governer on it. And you'll be able to set your values in it and have different rpm for different swithc position on your tx ..
Like Tony said it also protects the engine as it prevents over revving and unloading . true in a nitro and electric both but mostly in electric its to keep your heli's head from exploding when you come off pitch on the blades and they can gain crazy amount of rpm.
Have you read somewhere or have a document you were gonna use to govern the aign 450 esc? may be we can look into that too.. Just letting you know even if I had a governor feature its almost useless on the 450 with the stock setup.. But its your heli.. ofcourse you can play around with it and learn.
BOGGING on certain manuevers: Governor is just gonna apply more and more rpm when YOU are boggin the head. See where I capitalized.. lol Goernor or n governor.. you can BOG a heli head in a snap. all it is too much collective movement. or collective and cyclic stick movement.
You have to remember when you apply cyclic (aileron or elevator) you are applying collective on the blades and on top of that you are applying collective on the blades with your throttle stick.. if jammed too much you are looking at upwards of 13-15 degrees of pitch movement in a blade. No matter how powerful your motor is the heli WILL BOG ..So what we all learn from this is. To learn collective management. how much collective and cyclic is enough to do the manuever and recover without bogging. learned the best on mcpx brushed as it bogs very quickly and its audible. If you learn collective management you'll see the flying will get smoother and smoother.
Sorry about going of on a rant.. Hope its helpful!
On your 450 Marius, as I showed in the calculations, you arent gonna go over 3600 rpm anywaz. Thats way inside the manufacturer's specs. You can play with it.. although I dont understand how you are going to govern this 450 are you changing the ESC? you tx might have a setting, and RX might have a port , but you still need the sensing equiment for the governor. For nitros its actually a sensor sitting on the engine. For Electrics its inside ESC adjusting the timing as you tell it what your gear ratio is and whats the target Rpm. Beware, the throttle curves and everything has to change on the 450 if you govern it.
If you opt on going to a 6s setup, then YES you NEED governer then. The ESC you use usually comes with a governor.
on your JR NEX 8 the ESC you will get will have a programable governer on it. And you'll be able to set your values in it and have different rpm for different swithc position on your tx ..
Like Tony said it also protects the engine as it prevents over revving and unloading . true in a nitro and electric both but mostly in electric its to keep your heli's head from exploding when you come off pitch on the blades and they can gain crazy amount of rpm.
Have you read somewhere or have a document you were gonna use to govern the aign 450 esc? may be we can look into that too.. Just letting you know even if I had a governor feature its almost useless on the 450 with the stock setup.. But its your heli.. ofcourse you can play around with it and learn.
BOGGING on certain manuevers: Governor is just gonna apply more and more rpm when YOU are boggin the head. See where I capitalized.. lol Goernor or n governor.. you can BOG a heli head in a snap. all it is too much collective movement. or collective and cyclic stick movement.
You have to remember when you apply cyclic (aileron or elevator) you are applying collective on the blades and on top of that you are applying collective on the blades with your throttle stick.. if jammed too much you are looking at upwards of 13-15 degrees of pitch movement in a blade. No matter how powerful your motor is the heli WILL BOG ..So what we all learn from this is. To learn collective management. how much collective and cyclic is enough to do the manuever and recover without bogging. learned the best on mcpx brushed as it bogs very quickly and its audible. If you learn collective management you'll see the flying will get smoother and smoother.
Sorry about going of on a rant.. Hope its helpful!
stokke
Well-Known Member
OK, I hear you both (Gaba and Tony).
I don't have any experience on this GOV matter. But I have an idea about what it does, and I want to try it out. As for my "resource" on GOV on my 450, there are three whole pages in the instructions on how it works and how you set it up. I realize the ESC and motor are made for each other, and this just makes it "safe" for me to experiment with. As far as I have gathered, this ESC (Align one) also reads the motor as other after market ESC's would do, it won't need any sensor or anything. I don't expect using GOV will do anything for me, but seeing how stupid easy it is to set up, I'd like to try it out.
My theory is this;
With a curve (100-95-90-95-100) I will always have a RPM drop on center stick. On multiple occasions I've read that this is the recommended set-up when running ESC with curves. I don't remember why, but it's not recommended to run a straight line e.g. 85-85-85-85-85. It's also not recommended doing 100 across the line because this wears out motor.
With GOVERNOR enabled, I can run 89-89-89-89-89 (instructions states not to exceed 89%), and the middle stick RPM drop will be gone. Or at least, that's the point LOL.
I don't have any experience on this GOV matter. But I have an idea about what it does, and I want to try it out. As for my "resource" on GOV on my 450, there are three whole pages in the instructions on how it works and how you set it up. I realize the ESC and motor are made for each other, and this just makes it "safe" for me to experiment with. As far as I have gathered, this ESC (Align one) also reads the motor as other after market ESC's would do, it won't need any sensor or anything. I don't expect using GOV will do anything for me, but seeing how stupid easy it is to set up, I'd like to try it out.
My theory is this;
With a curve (100-95-90-95-100) I will always have a RPM drop on center stick. On multiple occasions I've read that this is the recommended set-up when running ESC with curves. I don't remember why, but it's not recommended to run a straight line e.g. 85-85-85-85-85. It's also not recommended doing 100 across the line because this wears out motor.
With GOVERNOR enabled, I can run 89-89-89-89-89 (instructions states not to exceed 89%), and the middle stick RPM drop will be gone. Or at least, that's the point LOL.
coolgabsi
Super Mod & DEAL KING!
Re: Marius' learning to fly - "video diary"
Are these pages in the manual for the esc or somewhere else. Hey I would wanna read that.
Ok.. drop of rpm at mid stick ? thats interesting.. ITs supposed to be the exact opposite cause you come off pitch coming to zero pitch at center. I am running a straight line throttle curve... But I might change it a little. The one reason you are seeing an rpm drop is because your throttle percentage is set at 90 on that point.. Thats why i am running straight line throttle curve at 85percent flat.. any reason you say why its not recommended. I havent done a whole lot of research on it. May be I will learn something new!
Hey! when you make those changes. make a video! before and after... how you did the settings. Was it good, bad or useless ? whatever it is! it'll be good to add here!
- - - Updated - - -
I just found this :::::: for BL35P esc that comes with the Align kits. there is a locator beep option. ! Thats awesome!!
"If the aircraft should land or crash in an unexpected location and become lost, the pilot can enable the Aircraft Locator Option. The Aircraft Locator Option is engaged by turning off the transmitter. When the ESC does not receive a signal from the transmitter for 30 seconds, it will start to send an alarm to the motor. The sound of the alarm will aid the pilot to locate the aircraft. This option will not work with a PCM receiver that has SAVE function enabled, or with low noise resistant PM receivers."
THis is cool! As soon as I get mine in mail today I am setting this up!!!
Are these pages in the manual for the esc or somewhere else. Hey I would wanna read that.
Ok.. drop of rpm at mid stick ? thats interesting.. ITs supposed to be the exact opposite cause you come off pitch coming to zero pitch at center. I am running a straight line throttle curve... But I might change it a little. The one reason you are seeing an rpm drop is because your throttle percentage is set at 90 on that point.. Thats why i am running straight line throttle curve at 85percent flat.. any reason you say why its not recommended. I havent done a whole lot of research on it. May be I will learn something new!
Hey! when you make those changes. make a video! before and after... how you did the settings. Was it good, bad or useless ? whatever it is! it'll be good to add here!
- - - Updated - - -
I just found this :::::: for BL35P esc that comes with the Align kits. there is a locator beep option. ! Thats awesome!!
"If the aircraft should land or crash in an unexpected location and become lost, the pilot can enable the Aircraft Locator Option. The Aircraft Locator Option is engaged by turning off the transmitter. When the ESC does not receive a signal from the transmitter for 30 seconds, it will start to send an alarm to the motor. The sound of the alarm will aid the pilot to locate the aircraft. This option will not work with a PCM receiver that has SAVE function enabled, or with low noise resistant PM receivers."
THis is cool! As soon as I get mine in mail today I am setting this up!!!
stokke
Well-Known Member
Re: Marius' learning to fly - "video diary"
E.g. the max RPM of the motor is 20.000, this would be accomplished running 100% throttle. This would also mean that at mid stick, the motor will be running 18.000 RPM when the curve is set for 90%. So "brute-pitch" the bird into rapid decent, then quickly "brute-pitch" it in the reversed direction (climb); when the bird is at it's lowest altitude there will be a moment when the motor is at 18.000 RPM. Here you'd of course want as much RPM as possible, as you want the bird to stop descending and start climbing as fast as possible. With the GOV enabled, you'd have a constant RPM no matter what - or at least the GOV will try to maintain RPM.
I'm not taking pitch affecting RPM into consideration as I regard them two separate operations. BUT calm down; I know pitch will affect HS
How to set up GOVERNOR is described in my manual which was included with the 450. Page 40-43 I think it was...
I will definitely do a "before and after" on this test. Will have a look when I get home from work if weather and daylight permits it.
LOL, I know. I just found that out last night as well, when reading through the instructions
Are these pages in the manual for the esc or somewhere else. Hey I would wanna read that.
Ok.. drop of rpm at mid stick ? thats interesting.. ITs supposed to be the exact opposite cause you come off pitch coming to zero pitch at center. I am running a straight line throttle curve... But I might change it a little. The one reason you are seeing an rpm drop is because your throttle percentage is set at 90 on that point.. Thats why i am running straight line throttle curve at 85percent flat.. any reason you say why its not recommended. I havent done a whole lot of research on it. May be I will learn something new!
Hey! when you make those changes. make a video! before and after... how you did the settings. Was it good, bad or useless ? whatever it is! it'll be good to add here!
E.g. the max RPM of the motor is 20.000, this would be accomplished running 100% throttle. This would also mean that at mid stick, the motor will be running 18.000 RPM when the curve is set for 90%. So "brute-pitch" the bird into rapid decent, then quickly "brute-pitch" it in the reversed direction (climb); when the bird is at it's lowest altitude there will be a moment when the motor is at 18.000 RPM. Here you'd of course want as much RPM as possible, as you want the bird to stop descending and start climbing as fast as possible. With the GOV enabled, you'd have a constant RPM no matter what - or at least the GOV will try to maintain RPM.
I'm not taking pitch affecting RPM into consideration as I regard them two separate operations. BUT calm down; I know pitch will affect HS
How to set up GOVERNOR is described in my manual which was included with the 450. Page 40-43 I think it was...
I will definitely do a "before and after" on this test. Will have a look when I get home from work if weather and daylight permits it.
LOL, I know. I just found that out last night as well, when reading through the instructions
coolgabsi
Super Mod & DEAL KING!
Well.. We all miss out on reading the manuals right.. you got me iterested in this. I have read like 30 pages on governor mode already lol... I wouldnt tell you my findings yet. I want to see what you feel after using it. And yes its just a setting.. where you set soft start.. set soft start with governor instead.
I dont think the Aircraft locator works on new systems anymore. THat is because the new systems (RX's) recognize no bind.. and give esc a low throttle position as fail safe. That makes esc think you are at low throttle even if you dont have a bind.. Esc just never knows RX keeps it to itself in the new systems.
I havent tried it.. I have read. I am gonna try it!
I dont think the Aircraft locator works on new systems anymore. THat is because the new systems (RX's) recognize no bind.. and give esc a low throttle position as fail safe. That makes esc think you are at low throttle even if you dont have a bind.. Esc just never knows RX keeps it to itself in the new systems.
I havent tried it.. I have read. I am gonna try it!
Tony
Staff member
Okay, let me chime in on this for a little more information 
If you are running a flat T-curve, when you add collective, you will bog the motor. When you are running a T-Curve that is a V pattern, as you increase collective (positive or negative) you will effectively increase the power of the motor to try and top the head from bogging the motor down. I always ran a V curve just for this reason. If I wanted to do something where I needed a lot of pitch, I wanted the motor to increase it's power as I move the stick, not as the rpm's went down.
If you run a brushless motor by its self, it will reach a certain rpm and it will hold there. There are sensors in the ESC's that will keep it from spinning past what it's designed to spin. There is a LOT more to it, but that is the jist of it. If you do the same thing with a brushed motor, it will spin until the windings fly off and you trash the motor.
I love the idea of playing around with this as I have stated before and can't wait to hear what you like and don't like about it. Having 90% throttle at mid stick, or 0º pitch is best IMO because when you pitch pump that thing while adding cyclic, you need that extra burst of power. If you have a flat curve, the motor will not be adding power while you add collective, it will instead be playing catch up to what you just told it to do.
When doing this on a Nitro however, I think the standard is to keep a flat curve. Nitro doesn't have the "punch" or "responsiveness" that of an electric motor. so it needs the power all the time.
Keep up the playing, can't wait to see what you come up with.
If you are running a flat T-curve, when you add collective, you will bog the motor. When you are running a T-Curve that is a V pattern, as you increase collective (positive or negative) you will effectively increase the power of the motor to try and top the head from bogging the motor down. I always ran a V curve just for this reason. If I wanted to do something where I needed a lot of pitch, I wanted the motor to increase it's power as I move the stick, not as the rpm's went down.
If you run a brushless motor by its self, it will reach a certain rpm and it will hold there. There are sensors in the ESC's that will keep it from spinning past what it's designed to spin. There is a LOT more to it, but that is the jist of it. If you do the same thing with a brushed motor, it will spin until the windings fly off and you trash the motor.
I love the idea of playing around with this as I have stated before and can't wait to hear what you like and don't like about it. Having 90% throttle at mid stick, or 0º pitch is best IMO because when you pitch pump that thing while adding cyclic, you need that extra burst of power. If you have a flat curve, the motor will not be adding power while you add collective, it will instead be playing catch up to what you just told it to do.
When doing this on a Nitro however, I think the standard is to keep a flat curve. Nitro doesn't have the "punch" or "responsiveness" that of an electric motor. so it needs the power all the time.
Keep up the playing, can't wait to see what you come up with.
stokke
Well-Known Member
stokke
Well-Known Member
Tony
Staff member
If you keep having this bogging issue, lower your collective down to 9º in both directions. You can do this in the Swash Mix menu. Just lower the Pitch value. You may even want to do that anyway just to see if you like it. It will bog the motor less, keep the head speed up and I will almost bet money you won't even notice a difference in losing 1.5º of pitch. And I"m sure you know, keep your cyclic at 8º if you are running 2.1 and I'm sure you are, in fact I know you are. Give the 9º a shot and see what you think. It's very easy to change back in the field if you don't like it by adjusting the menu back to where it was.
stokke
Well-Known Member
I may give it a try. Besides trying out GOV I'm also trying to fine tune the advanced settings in the 3GX, but it's taking time as I have to work my way trough a trial-and-error process. There are a few features that will affect this bogging.
stokke
Well-Known Member
Well here it is. The tests only last the first 30 seconds or so, then I start regular flying.
Flight 77 with curves.
100-95-90-95-100
Collective 10,5º +/-
Flight 77, learning to fly. T-Rex 450 PRO 3GX - YouTube
Flight 80 with Governor.
87-87-87-87-87.
Collective 10,5º +/-
Flight 80, learning to fly. T-Rex 450 PRO 3GX - YouTube
I can't say I notice any difference in the pitch pumps (or whatever you're calling it). The biggest difference lies in the sound of the bird, and that I feel it's a little more composed when run under GOV. Also, it's kind of strange that she revs up to max before taking off, but that's just something new to get used to.
You see any difference?
Flight 77 with curves.
100-95-90-95-100
Collective 10,5º +/-
Flight 77, learning to fly. T-Rex 450 PRO 3GX - YouTube
Flight 80 with Governor.
87-87-87-87-87.
Collective 10,5º +/-
Flight 80, learning to fly. T-Rex 450 PRO 3GX - YouTube
I can't say I notice any difference in the pitch pumps (or whatever you're calling it). The biggest difference lies in the sound of the bird, and that I feel it's a little more composed when run under GOV. Also, it's kind of strange that she revs up to max before taking off, but that's just something new to get used to.
You see any difference?
Tony
Staff member
The Gov is effectivly creating the V curve for you, and this is why you are not seeing any change. There is a reason they will only allow you to have a max of 89 on your throttle curve. that is so it has 11 points to raise the power for the motor to keep it from bogging so much.
stokke
Well-Known Member
Yes.
Now I just have to tweak and tweak until I get rid of that bog as much as possible without sacrificing too much agility and power.
stokke
Well-Known Member
I've been tweaking the 3GX's advanced settings some more now.
Yesterday me and a friend was out flying, and I'm starting to get satisfied with the handling and agility - very satisfied indeed. It's strange to get used to the minor changes each time, but in the long haul I bet it'll be worth it.
Anyways. So yesterday she worked very well with the new settings as well as with the governed head speed. I also performed a new trick No recording, but I'll get it later. Today though, she was in a bad mood I think. When I switched from N to IU1, the RPM sounded weird, so I switched back to N again - only this time she set the throttle to maybe 30-40%! She could barely hold the air, so I hurried and set her down on the ramp...
Not trusting this set-up, I decided to set both THR curves to 88% (N was previously 75%). Kind of scary lifting off from the ramp at full THR. It worked, and no sorrows. BUT, after a minute or so I decided to do an invert, and I forgot I was still in Normal!!! Luckily I have about -2° on N, so I was able to perform a flip back to right-side-up... CLOSE ONE.
I'm annoyed the Align GOV cannot handle the two THR settings, but I've read there has been some issues with the Align ESC GOV's - and I guess this is it.
Yesterday me and a friend was out flying, and I'm starting to get satisfied with the handling and agility - very satisfied indeed. It's strange to get used to the minor changes each time, but in the long haul I bet it'll be worth it.
Anyways. So yesterday she worked very well with the new settings as well as with the governed head speed. I also performed a new trick
No recording, but I'll get it later. Today though, she was in a bad mood I think. When I switched from N to IU1, the RPM sounded weird, so I switched back to N again - only this time she set the throttle to maybe 30-40%! She could barely hold the air, so I hurried and set her down on the ramp...Not trusting this set-up, I decided to set both THR curves to 88% (N was previously 75%). Kind of scary lifting off from the ramp at full THR. It worked, and no sorrows. BUT, after a minute or so I decided to do an invert, and I forgot I was still in Normal!!! Luckily I have about -2° on N, so I was able to perform a flip back to right-side-up... CLOSE ONE.
I'm annoyed the Align GOV cannot handle the two THR settings, but I've read there has been some issues with the Align ESC GOV's - and I guess this is it.
Tony
Staff member
I usually NEVER switch into idle up in the air, I always do it on the ground just incase something happens. If you flip the idle up switch right as you start spooling up, it will be a very smooth spool up all the way to 100%. Not like it is after you are in the air and it jerks to 100%. Either way, just have fun with it!
Lee
Well-Known Member
I use to flip to ID1 on the ground at first, just because i was nervous to do it in the air. Now though i just flip from one to the other in the air, no probe.
Its all down to how your TH and PIT are set. If you can make the hover point on your two setting as close to the same as possible, you will have no issues.
Its all down to how your TH and PIT are set. If you can make the hover point on your two setting as close to the same as possible, you will have no issues.